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	<title>Comments on: Fumbling Critical Rolls and the LORE Approach</title>
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	<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2008/11/07/fumbling-critical-rolls-and-the-lore-approach/</link>
	<description>The Art of Interaction</description>
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		<title>By: Ludus Novus &#187; Blog Archive &#187; LORE and Belief Released</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2008/11/07/fumbling-critical-rolls-and-the-lore-approach/comment-page-1/#comment-51501</link>
		<dc:creator>Ludus Novus &#187; Blog Archive &#187; LORE and Belief Released</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:03:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=153#comment-51501</guid>
		<description>[...] is an attempt to address some of the common problems with tabletop RPGs. It has an interesting dice system; a quick, easy, and original character creation system; and a system that&#8217;s lightweight, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is an attempt to address some of the common problems with tabletop RPGs. It has an interesting dice system; a quick, easy, and original character creation system; and a system that&#8217;s lightweight, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory Weir</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2008/11/07/fumbling-critical-rolls-and-the-lore-approach/comment-page-1/#comment-49645</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory Weir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=153#comment-49645</guid>
		<description>With any system, of course, the GM has the right to pick and choose what rules they keep.  It sounds like you are a big fan of GM control over the story and path of the game.  Increasingly, I&#039;ve tended in another direction: giving the players more control.  I try to design campaigns that can&#039;t be &quot;thrown off track;&quot; if the players don&#039;t want to play the game the way I thought they would, it&#039;s my job to adapt.

My e-mail is available on the &quot;More About Ludus Novus&quot; page, found in the sidebar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With any system, of course, the GM has the right to pick and choose what rules they keep.  It sounds like you are a big fan of GM control over the story and path of the game.  Increasingly, I&#8217;ve tended in another direction: giving the players more control.  I try to design campaigns that can&#8217;t be &#8220;thrown off track;&#8221; if the players don&#8217;t want to play the game the way I thought they would, it&#8217;s my job to adapt.</p>
<p>My e-mail is available on the &#8220;More About Ludus Novus&#8221; page, found in the sidebar.</p>
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		<title>By: Scry</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2008/11/07/fumbling-critical-rolls-and-the-lore-approach/comment-page-1/#comment-49643</link>
		<dc:creator>Scry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 04:20:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=153#comment-49643</guid>
		<description>I have been looking over all the info you have listed, and I agree with a lot of it. I am also currently working on a new tabletop rpg, mine has been under going for 8 years now. But with you game and having this &quot;player GM&quot; thing not being rude just don’t know the name you’re using. Its seems more like this is going to hamper the Gm of the game. this critical fail system you have created has a flaw, well to me anyways (who known’s everyone may love it) in my game this critical fail chance that all players share is a great point in the game for the Gm to interact in the battle if things are falling apart on him, or his story is being messed up. now for the most part we all know not to expect are game plans to go as we plan but taking away the Gm&#039;s control of the critical miss takes away his chance to control the story of the game, without making some obvious change to the rules. Example being... Sivin as a character refuses to destroy (something (this something will affect the game)) he rolls a critical during the next battle with a spell of weapon; this crit fail can in turn be used to break the item. This sets the game back on track. Now this is just one example, I have had my story line kept together by crits, the reason why, is players may becomes too powerful and figure your storyline needs to be changed. And without pulling something out of nowhere you cannot control them, crits allows all players weak or strong to show fail. With this fail you can turn the game around, so you are now using the player to keep your story intact. the common argument is &quot;well don’t let them get overpowered&quot; 1) if you have played any tabletop rpg and have been around my family you can turn the entire game around within 6 hours by fallowing the rules to a T. 2) if players can’t beat the odds and become overpowered they fail to feel like they ever have a chance of becoming a hero, and 2/3 players want to brag about how powerful the Char was. Now understand i am not trying to say it won’t work but i will say from Xp that my players have a blast thinking one thing and having another happen to them. 

Also this post doesn’t seem too old and I wouldn’t mind chatting with someone who has the same career as me. That said if you feel like conversing you can hit me up at incarnum11@hotmail.com. I don’t expect any trade secrets about how your game works; I would rather like to chat about what we have found during our trials of getting these games in the right direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been looking over all the info you have listed, and I agree with a lot of it. I am also currently working on a new tabletop rpg, mine has been under going for 8 years now. But with you game and having this &#8220;player GM&#8221; thing not being rude just don’t know the name you’re using. Its seems more like this is going to hamper the Gm of the game. this critical fail system you have created has a flaw, well to me anyways (who known’s everyone may love it) in my game this critical fail chance that all players share is a great point in the game for the Gm to interact in the battle if things are falling apart on him, or his story is being messed up. now for the most part we all know not to expect are game plans to go as we plan but taking away the Gm&#8217;s control of the critical miss takes away his chance to control the story of the game, without making some obvious change to the rules. Example being&#8230; Sivin as a character refuses to destroy (something (this something will affect the game)) he rolls a critical during the next battle with a spell of weapon; this crit fail can in turn be used to break the item. This sets the game back on track. Now this is just one example, I have had my story line kept together by crits, the reason why, is players may becomes too powerful and figure your storyline needs to be changed. And without pulling something out of nowhere you cannot control them, crits allows all players weak or strong to show fail. With this fail you can turn the game around, so you are now using the player to keep your story intact. the common argument is &#8220;well don’t let them get overpowered&#8221; 1) if you have played any tabletop rpg and have been around my family you can turn the entire game around within 6 hours by fallowing the rules to a T. 2) if players can’t beat the odds and become overpowered they fail to feel like they ever have a chance of becoming a hero, and 2/3 players want to brag about how powerful the Char was. Now understand i am not trying to say it won’t work but i will say from Xp that my players have a blast thinking one thing and having another happen to them. </p>
<p>Also this post doesn’t seem too old and I wouldn’t mind chatting with someone who has the same career as me. That said if you feel like conversing you can hit me up at <a href="mailto:incarnum11@hotmail.com">incarnum11@hotmail.com</a>. I don’t expect any trade secrets about how your game works; I would rather like to chat about what we have found during our trials of getting these games in the right direction.</p>
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		<title>By: Ludus Novus &#187; Blog Archive &#187; What&#8217;s Wrong with Tabletop RPGs</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2008/11/07/fumbling-critical-rolls-and-the-lore-approach/comment-page-1/#comment-43032</link>
		<dc:creator>Ludus Novus &#187; Blog Archive &#187; What&#8217;s Wrong with Tabletop RPGs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 22:31:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=153#comment-43032</guid>
		<description>[...] A good dice-rolling mechanic should be quick and simple. It should have a limit to the dice pool, to avoid the inevitable immersion-destroying moments of scrabbling around for two more dice for an epic pool that should be exciting. Exceptionally good rolls should feel fun somehow, and should never cause disappointment. I&#8217;ve previously discussed my plans for a solution. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A good dice-rolling mechanic should be quick and simple. It should have a limit to the dice pool, to avoid the inevitable immersion-destroying moments of scrabbling around for two more dice for an epic pool that should be exciting. Exceptionally good rolls should feel fun somehow, and should never cause disappointment. I&#8217;ve previously discussed my plans for a solution. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ludus Novus :: First LORE Playtest</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2008/11/07/fumbling-critical-rolls-and-the-lore-approach/comment-page-1/#comment-31176</link>
		<dc:creator>Ludus Novus :: First LORE Playtest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 06:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=153#comment-31176</guid>
		<description>[...] mentioned before that I&#8217;m working on a tabletop roleplaying system. LORE, or the Lightweight Omnipotent [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] mentioned before that I&#8217;m working on a tabletop roleplaying system. LORE, or the Lightweight Omnipotent [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory Weir</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2008/11/07/fumbling-critical-rolls-and-the-lore-approach/comment-page-1/#comment-29484</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory Weir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 00:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=153#comment-29484</guid>
		<description>Exactly.  If a player isn&#039;t fully invested, then it&#039;s fundamentally a social problem.  The system can encourage players (and GMs!) to roleplay, but in the end it&#039;s at the gaming table that roleplaying happens, not at the author&#039;s desk.

I&#039;d actually argue that it&#039;s fine for a player to BS a low-impact outcome.  The purpose of critical failures, in my opinion, isn&#039;t to screw over players; it&#039;s to make the game more fun and the story more engaging.  If a player doesn&#039;t feel like narrating a particularly bad failure, and the others at the table are fine with that, then it&#039;s perfectly okay, as long as it&#039;s fun and the story is progressing as the GM and players desire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly.  If a player isn&#8217;t fully invested, then it&#8217;s fundamentally a social problem.  The system can encourage players (and GMs!) to roleplay, but in the end it&#8217;s at the gaming table that roleplaying happens, not at the author&#8217;s desk.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d actually argue that it&#8217;s fine for a player to BS a low-impact outcome.  The purpose of critical failures, in my opinion, isn&#8217;t to screw over players; it&#8217;s to make the game more fun and the story more engaging.  If a player doesn&#8217;t feel like narrating a particularly bad failure, and the others at the table are fine with that, then it&#8217;s perfectly okay, as long as it&#8217;s fun and the story is progressing as the GM and players desire.</p>
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		<title>By: LCom</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2008/11/07/fumbling-critical-rolls-and-the-lore-approach/comment-page-1/#comment-29483</link>
		<dc:creator>LCom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 00:39:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=153#comment-29483</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m all for lightweight rules. I&#039;m just also thinking in the case that you have players who try to BS the lowest impact outcome in a given situation. Obviously something bad is going to happen - the dice determine that. But in the event of a lackluster player, do you have a means to make the player choose a bad outcome that&#039;s more then &quot;it just doesn&#039;t work&quot;?

Then again, maybe I&#039;m over thinking it. If you&#039;re game is going to wind up boring because a player doesn&#039;t know how to fail interestingly, then there&#039;s fault in more then your game system...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m all for lightweight rules. I&#8217;m just also thinking in the case that you have players who try to BS the lowest impact outcome in a given situation. Obviously something bad is going to happen &#8211; the dice determine that. But in the event of a lackluster player, do you have a means to make the player choose a bad outcome that&#8217;s more then &#8220;it just doesn&#8217;t work&#8221;?</p>
<p>Then again, maybe I&#8217;m over thinking it. If you&#8217;re game is going to wind up boring because a player doesn&#8217;t know how to fail interestingly, then there&#8217;s fault in more then your game system&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory Weir</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2008/11/07/fumbling-critical-rolls-and-the-lore-approach/comment-page-1/#comment-29474</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory Weir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 22:35:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=153#comment-29474</guid>
		<description>The mechanics of an interesting failure depend on the situation.  Usually, they should be clear from the player&#039;s description.  If the player decides she drops her axe, she drops her axe and has to spend a turn getting it.  If she freezes under the pressure of interrogating a witness, then she continues to roleplay with the witness knowing her character isn&#039;t so confident.

In some cases, there is a mechanical consequence, like a loss of hitpoints or a roll to recover.  However, these consequences are determined *after* the player narrates the interesting failure.  Hopefully, there won&#039;t be a grudge when the GM says to mark off a health level, because the player decided that she accidentally shot herself in the foot.  It&#039;s the player&#039;s choice what occurs, so she has some control over the mechanical outcome.

As it&#039;s an intentionally lightweight system, I&#039;m trying to keep the rules simple, so there are few rules that guarantee specific results of interesting failures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The mechanics of an interesting failure depend on the situation.  Usually, they should be clear from the player&#8217;s description.  If the player decides she drops her axe, she drops her axe and has to spend a turn getting it.  If she freezes under the pressure of interrogating a witness, then she continues to roleplay with the witness knowing her character isn&#8217;t so confident.</p>
<p>In some cases, there is a mechanical consequence, like a loss of hitpoints or a roll to recover.  However, these consequences are determined *after* the player narrates the interesting failure.  Hopefully, there won&#8217;t be a grudge when the GM says to mark off a health level, because the player decided that she accidentally shot herself in the foot.  It&#8217;s the player&#8217;s choice what occurs, so she has some control over the mechanical outcome.</p>
<p>As it&#8217;s an intentionally lightweight system, I&#8217;m trying to keep the rules simple, so there are few rules that guarantee specific results of interesting failures.</p>
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		<title>By: LCom</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2008/11/07/fumbling-critical-rolls-and-the-lore-approach/comment-page-1/#comment-29467</link>
		<dc:creator>LCom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 21:45:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=153#comment-29467</guid>
		<description>I like the idea of being &quot;interesting&quot; instead of critical, and the cascading re-rolls is a good mechanic (for some reason all I can think of is farkle, but that&#039;s because of one particular game when I went from 2000 points behind the other players to winning in one turn, which one could say is a critical win) that I don&#039;t think is used enough. It&#039;s simple and effective. And then just going high enough makes it critical, and this makes a lot of sense. I&#039;m interested to see it in action with modifiers and such in actual...encounters (since I doubt it&#039;s going to be a combat centric system).

Only question I have is about what the mechanical results of an interesting fail is. in games like D&amp;D, if my warrior critically fails attacking a goblin, he could be disarmed and have to spend a turn running to pick up his axe, or he swings and hits his foot by mistake and looses some health, or it gets stuck in a nearby wall and he needs to strength check to get it back out, etc. How is this handled? Is there still a GM determining what the negative effects are, or is there some sort of standard &quot;fumble&quot; that happens? (perhaps even like a fumble roll, deciding what kind of negative effect happens.) I&#039;d believe the later might be more effective, because then players wouldn&#039;t have to think about what happens and would go for the why it happens that you mentioned. If I know that there&#039;s a GM sitting there who just semi-arbitrarily decided how I messed up, I&#039;d be too upset to make up some bits about the goblin back alley fighting league that this particular one spent his youth in which makes him a bit more agile then normal goblins. But if there&#039;s a rule that says &quot;when you fail hard enough, this / one of these things are what will happen&quot; then I&#039;d feel it&#039;s more of an inevitability, and I wouldn&#039;t bother holding a grudge over it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea of being &#8220;interesting&#8221; instead of critical, and the cascading re-rolls is a good mechanic (for some reason all I can think of is farkle, but that&#8217;s because of one particular game when I went from 2000 points behind the other players to winning in one turn, which one could say is a critical win) that I don&#8217;t think is used enough. It&#8217;s simple and effective. And then just going high enough makes it critical, and this makes a lot of sense. I&#8217;m interested to see it in action with modifiers and such in actual&#8230;encounters (since I doubt it&#8217;s going to be a combat centric system).</p>
<p>Only question I have is about what the mechanical results of an interesting fail is. in games like D&amp;D, if my warrior critically fails attacking a goblin, he could be disarmed and have to spend a turn running to pick up his axe, or he swings and hits his foot by mistake and looses some health, or it gets stuck in a nearby wall and he needs to strength check to get it back out, etc. How is this handled? Is there still a GM determining what the negative effects are, or is there some sort of standard &#8220;fumble&#8221; that happens? (perhaps even like a fumble roll, deciding what kind of negative effect happens.) I&#8217;d believe the later might be more effective, because then players wouldn&#8217;t have to think about what happens and would go for the why it happens that you mentioned. If I know that there&#8217;s a GM sitting there who just semi-arbitrarily decided how I messed up, I&#8217;d be too upset to make up some bits about the goblin back alley fighting league that this particular one spent his youth in which makes him a bit more agile then normal goblins. But if there&#8217;s a rule that says &#8220;when you fail hard enough, this / one of these things are what will happen&#8221; then I&#8217;d feel it&#8217;s more of an inevitability, and I wouldn&#8217;t bother holding a grudge over it.</p>
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