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	<title>Comments on: Simulation, Structure, and Agency</title>
	<atom:link href="http://ludusnovus.net/2009/02/05/simulation-structure-and-agency/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2009/02/05/simulation-structure-and-agency/</link>
	<description>The Art of Interaction</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 13 May 2012 01:35:34 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Ludus Novus &#187; Blog Archive &#187; GM Success</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2009/02/05/simulation-structure-and-agency/comment-page-1/#comment-43812</link>
		<dc:creator>Ludus Novus &#187; Blog Archive &#187; GM Success</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 04:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=327#comment-43812</guid>
		<description>[...] sorts of interesting choices. If the choice is easy, it&#8217;s not providing the players much (high-level) agency. Only when a decision is difficult &#8212; when there is no clear &#8220;right&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] sorts of interesting choices. If the choice is easy, it&#8217;s not providing the players much (high-level) agency. Only when a decision is difficult &mdash; when there is no clear &#8220;right&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: DoomRater</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2009/02/05/simulation-structure-and-agency/comment-page-1/#comment-39310</link>
		<dc:creator>DoomRater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Mar 2009 04:02:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=327#comment-39310</guid>
		<description>What is fascinating about the game focuses you wrote about in the second to last paragraph is that I have played both types of games- Team Fortress 2 and &quot;Dont shit your pants&quot; as respective examples.

This brings up an interesting game design- branching off due to success or failure of an &quot;essential&quot; objective?  I don&#039;t recall seeing any game convincingly pull this off- IE it was either pretty clear that it was an optional choice, or the player MUST succeed or fail at this point for the story to go on.  Let me know if you can think of any examples!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is fascinating about the game focuses you wrote about in the second to last paragraph is that I have played both types of games- Team Fortress 2 and &#8220;Dont shit your pants&#8221; as respective examples.</p>
<p>This brings up an interesting game design- branching off due to success or failure of an &#8220;essential&#8221; objective?  I don&#8217;t recall seeing any game convincingly pull this off- IE it was either pretty clear that it was an optional choice, or the player MUST succeed or fail at this point for the story to go on.  Let me know if you can think of any examples!</p>
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		<title>By: Ludus Novus &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Branching Pathways</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2009/02/05/simulation-structure-and-agency/comment-page-1/#comment-37984</link>
		<dc:creator>Ludus Novus &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Branching Pathways</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 07:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=327#comment-37984</guid>
		<description>[...] write a lot about agency, the ability for a player to affect the outcome of events in a piece of interactivity. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] write a lot about agency, the ability for a player to affect the outcome of events in a piece of interactivity. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2009/02/05/simulation-structure-and-agency/comment-page-1/#comment-37261</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=327#comment-37261</guid>
		<description>Wow!  You and I share almost the exact same design philosophies!  It&#039;s good to see another developer that sees the value of authorial control even in open world games. =)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow!  You and I share almost the exact same design philosophies!  It&#8217;s good to see another developer that sees the value of authorial control even in open world games. =)</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory Weir</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2009/02/05/simulation-structure-and-agency/comment-page-1/#comment-37210</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory Weir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 16:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=327#comment-37210</guid>
		<description>I absolutely agree.  Personally, I lean far further toward the &quot;authorial control&quot; side of the scale than many folks who&#039;ve written on this topic.  However, storytelling can be player-driven and still designer-crafted.  By placing constraints on the setting, interaction, and game world, I can tell a story, or rather, a set of stories, and still allow the player agency over the progress of that story.  Look at, say, &lt;i&gt;The Sims&lt;/i&gt;.  Any game of &lt;i&gt;The Sims&lt;/i&gt; tells a story of the value of consumerism, hard work, and time management, while still letting the player trap people in a room and make them pee themselves to death if she wants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I absolutely agree.  Personally, I lean far further toward the &#8220;authorial control&#8221; side of the scale than many folks who&#8217;ve written on this topic.  However, storytelling can be player-driven and still designer-crafted.  By placing constraints on the setting, interaction, and game world, I can tell a story, or rather, a set of stories, and still allow the player agency over the progress of that story.  Look at, say, <i>The Sims</i>.  Any game of <i>The Sims</i> tells a story of the value of consumerism, hard work, and time management, while still letting the player trap people in a room and make them pee themselves to death if she wants.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2009/02/05/simulation-structure-and-agency/comment-page-1/#comment-37172</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 07:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=327#comment-37172</guid>
		<description>As fun as emergent stories are, I think they really have to be guided by a unifying theme in order to be meaningful.  There are some developers that seem to follow the maxim that player-driven storytelling is automatically superior to any story a game designer might want to tell.  This might be true from a pure entertainment standpoint, but there are also those of us that want gaming to reach beyond that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As fun as emergent stories are, I think they really have to be guided by a unifying theme in order to be meaningful.  There are some developers that seem to follow the maxim that player-driven storytelling is automatically superior to any story a game designer might want to tell.  This might be true from a pure entertainment standpoint, but there are also those of us that want gaming to reach beyond that.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonas</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2009/02/05/simulation-structure-and-agency/comment-page-1/#comment-36837</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=327#comment-36837</guid>
		<description>I have a lot to say about this. I just... need... time...
(and for this headache to go away)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a lot to say about this. I just&#8230; need&#8230; time&#8230;<br />
(and for this headache to go away)</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Butchart</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2009/02/05/simulation-structure-and-agency/comment-page-1/#comment-36419</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Butchart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=327#comment-36419</guid>
		<description>OMG! u featured my picture! thank u so much! im really glad you like it. i hope you win the tankie. good luck!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OMG! u featured my picture! thank u so much! im really glad you like it. i hope you win the tankie. good luck!</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory Weir</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2009/02/05/simulation-structure-and-agency/comment-page-1/#comment-36415</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory Weir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 07:12:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=327#comment-36415</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think that multiplayer games really are that different of an animal.  We can easily turn a multiplayer game into a single player one by replacing humans with bots, and game AIs are complex enough to pass the Turing test in their limited domains.  It just seems that they&#039;re different because we don&#039;t see real stories told in multiplayer all that much, which is a shame.  I&#039;ve played very few MMOs, and the one I&#039;ve played extensively (&lt;i&gt;Myst Online&lt;/i&gt;) is definitely an outlier.

Regarding the element of the linear in the nonlinear: there&#039;re always going to be limits on your simulation.  Some are pragmatic limits; we simply can&#039;t simulate a world to the quantum level.  Some, as you describe, are designed limits.  If the designer is going to guide the story of one of these hypothetical freely-structured games, she will do so both through the imposition of limits and the addition of goal metrics.

Regarding the multiple levels of action, I think we do want to &quot;combine numerous low-level, but not necessarily linear, actions into a high-level change somewhere.&quot;  Ideally, the high-level agency emerges out of low-level agency.  It would be clumsy to have a different set of verbs for affecting the game on a low level and on a high level.  And I love emergent stories that are as unexpected to the developer as they are to the player.  &lt;i&gt;Dwarf Fortress&lt;/i&gt; is, I think, the best example of this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think that multiplayer games really are that different of an animal.  We can easily turn a multiplayer game into a single player one by replacing humans with bots, and game AIs are complex enough to pass the Turing test in their limited domains.  It just seems that they&#8217;re different because we don&#8217;t see real stories told in multiplayer all that much, which is a shame.  I&#8217;ve played very few MMOs, and the one I&#8217;ve played extensively (<i>Myst Online</i>) is definitely an outlier.</p>
<p>Regarding the element of the linear in the nonlinear: there&#8217;re always going to be limits on your simulation.  Some are pragmatic limits; we simply can&#8217;t simulate a world to the quantum level.  Some, as you describe, are designed limits.  If the designer is going to guide the story of one of these hypothetical freely-structured games, she will do so both through the imposition of limits and the addition of goal metrics.</p>
<p>Regarding the multiple levels of action, I think we do want to &#8220;combine numerous low-level, but not necessarily linear, actions into a high-level change somewhere.&#8221;  Ideally, the high-level agency emerges out of low-level agency.  It would be clumsy to have a different set of verbs for affecting the game on a low level and on a high level.  And I love emergent stories that are as unexpected to the developer as they are to the player.  <i>Dwarf Fortress</i> is, I think, the best example of this.</p>
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		<title>By: Verskand B.</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2009/02/05/simulation-structure-and-agency/comment-page-1/#comment-36413</link>
		<dc:creator>Verskand B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 06:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=327#comment-36413</guid>
		<description>The thing is, you&#039;ve mentioned several aspects that are primarily a single-player experience. Once one gets into co-operative play over the resource of the Internet, linear, non-linear, or branched storylines go out the window. Or at least, they should.
I am not happy with the way MMORPGs are taking it, but I digress.

(Oh, I followed you here from Bars of Black And White. I think it was a fairly good game - a little spine-chilling at points, but satisfyingly simple.)

If I understand the points you have raised correctly, you are specifying two separate concepts - low-level and high-level control of a character, and linear or non-linear story and goals. In some way, even in a broad, non-linear environment, you may still have aspects of the linear -- for example, you still would not like your character avatar to die and thus lose your hard work in them.
Or perhaps it would be easier simply to weave them together? The reason I raised MMORPGs is that they have an element of co-operation and competition, whereupon individual low-level control of characters may lead to a high-level change in the story -- not plot-driven from a higher power (as WoW tends to be), but simply a conflict that causes unexpected incidents and events to occur, causing the game to move forward. 
In a sense, could that not be brought into a digital game? Instead of &#039;Do what you want. It&#039;ll be fun. Really,&#039; it could very well be &#039;I have absolutely no idea what&#039;s going to happen if you do that. Seriously. Try it.&#039; 
That is, in some way manage to combine numerous low-level, but not necessarily linear, actions into a high-level change somewhere, be it in the perspective of the player or a major plot - in that sense, it remains interactive, and yet random, because some variable, be it location or simply the personality of the person playing it, will change the experience of the game for the player.

I am deeply sorry that I rambled. I hope that the above made some modicum of sense.

Verskand.

(And as for digital games not having good plots, there is a wide market, and a wide number of developers. I point to thatgamecompany -- for a start. Beside that, however, I have greatly enjoyed your games and your viewpoint, and hope to see more of your games in the future.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing is, you&#8217;ve mentioned several aspects that are primarily a single-player experience. Once one gets into co-operative play over the resource of the Internet, linear, non-linear, or branched storylines go out the window. Or at least, they should.<br />
I am not happy with the way MMORPGs are taking it, but I digress.</p>
<p>(Oh, I followed you here from Bars of Black And White. I think it was a fairly good game &#8211; a little spine-chilling at points, but satisfyingly simple.)</p>
<p>If I understand the points you have raised correctly, you are specifying two separate concepts &#8211; low-level and high-level control of a character, and linear or non-linear story and goals. In some way, even in a broad, non-linear environment, you may still have aspects of the linear &#8212; for example, you still would not like your character avatar to die and thus lose your hard work in them.<br />
Or perhaps it would be easier simply to weave them together? The reason I raised MMORPGs is that they have an element of co-operation and competition, whereupon individual low-level control of characters may lead to a high-level change in the story &#8212; not plot-driven from a higher power (as WoW tends to be), but simply a conflict that causes unexpected incidents and events to occur, causing the game to move forward.<br />
In a sense, could that not be brought into a digital game? Instead of &#8216;Do what you want. It&#8217;ll be fun. Really,&#8217; it could very well be &#8216;I have absolutely no idea what&#8217;s going to happen if you do that. Seriously. Try it.&#8217;<br />
That is, in some way manage to combine numerous low-level, but not necessarily linear, actions into a high-level change somewhere, be it in the perspective of the player or a major plot &#8211; in that sense, it remains interactive, and yet random, because some variable, be it location or simply the personality of the person playing it, will change the experience of the game for the player.</p>
<p>I am deeply sorry that I rambled. I hope that the above made some modicum of sense.</p>
<p>Verskand.</p>
<p>(And as for digital games not having good plots, there is a wide market, and a wide number of developers. I point to thatgamecompany &#8212; for a start. Beside that, however, I have greatly enjoyed your games and your viewpoint, and hope to see more of your games in the future.)</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory Weir</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2009/02/05/simulation-structure-and-agency/comment-page-1/#comment-36371</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregory Weir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=327#comment-36371</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;ve nailed it: the author has to do a good job at getting the player interested in one of the possible goals.  With a more linear game, the author can say, &quot;Do this specific.  I promise interesting stuff will happen.&quot;  That&#039;s a lot easier to believe than the nonlinear version, &quot;Do what you want... it&#039;ll be fun.  Really.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;ve nailed it: the author has to do a good job at getting the player interested in one of the possible goals.  With a more linear game, the author can say, &#8220;Do this specific.  I promise interesting stuff will happen.&#8221;  That&#8217;s a lot easier to believe than the nonlinear version, &#8220;Do what you want&#8230; it&#8217;ll be fun.  Really.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Sequoia S.</title>
		<link>http://ludusnovus.net/2009/02/05/simulation-structure-and-agency/comment-page-1/#comment-36367</link>
		<dc:creator>Sequoia S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ludusnovus.net/?p=327#comment-36367</guid>
		<description>Well I just played the barcodes game on newgrounds.com and it fascinated me which in turn lead me to your website and I&#039;ve now downloaded Fool&#039;s Errand. I agree that non-linear gaming has it&#039;s advantages, being able to explore more paths and not be confined to one storyline has it&#039;s advantages. Though if you (the player) have no goals (wanting to get a certain score or accomplish a specific mission) then it becomes difficult to become immersed in such a game. I suppose it relies on the authors ability to create a game that will keep the players intrigued and wanting to continue exploring the game even if there is no &#039;right&#039; path. I&#039;m curious to see what your working on, and I&#039;m a fan of the old text based games, (adventure comes to mind) which I imagine A Fool&#039;s Errand may be similar to, so I look forward to playing it. Good luck with your current work.


-Sequoia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I just played the barcodes game on newgrounds.com and it fascinated me which in turn lead me to your website and I&#8217;ve now downloaded Fool&#8217;s Errand. I agree that non-linear gaming has it&#8217;s advantages, being able to explore more paths and not be confined to one storyline has it&#8217;s advantages. Though if you (the player) have no goals (wanting to get a certain score or accomplish a specific mission) then it becomes difficult to become immersed in such a game. I suppose it relies on the authors ability to create a game that will keep the players intrigued and wanting to continue exploring the game even if there is no &#8216;right&#8217; path. I&#8217;m curious to see what your working on, and I&#8217;m a fan of the old text based games, (adventure comes to mind) which I imagine A Fool&#8217;s Errand may be similar to, so I look forward to playing it. Good luck with your current work.</p>
<p>-Sequoia.</p>
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